Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate

Vice Presidential speculation is a lot of fun, mostly because it's so harmless, but we've got to remember the political role of the Vice Presidential nominee. All the discussion of ideological or geographical balance is a distraction from what we're really talking about, which is surrogacy. The Vice President's job -- aside from their Constitutional responsibility -- is to work as the President's number one cheerleader in whatever forum they're best suited. The hard part is picking the forum where you need help.

The President cannot be all things to all people and cannot be in more than one place at one time. They need help. They need surrogates to extend their presence and talk to certain audiences. They need surrogates to compliment and extend. A surrogate talks to specific audiences by specific mediums about specific topics. Vice President Cheney does Chris Wallace and Rush Limbaugh. In other words, he's the President's top surrogate for Southern White men (his base) and the GOP's corporatist wing. Al Gore took a different approach in 2000. He picked Joseph Lieberman to speak to moderate values voters that we're supposedly wobbly on the Democrats.

When we talk about the Democratic nominee for Vice President, we need to know whom they'll be expected to speak with. Simply picking someone because they're from the South or they're moderate doesn't make much sense if it isn't in the context of a political strategy. The strategy might mean shoring up and turning out your base. Or it might be peeling off a few thousand moderate voters in an obscure district in a crucial swing state.

Some say the first rule of picking a Vice President is trust. Others say it's to play foil as the attack dog. In my mind, those are obvious prerequisites that don't mean anything if they can't be translated into electoral politics. Dick Cheney isn't Vice President just because the President trusts him. It's because he plays the modest but critical role of keeping the base happy.  The winner of the Veepstakes has to mean something in the context of the electorate and the Democratic coalition.

This all might be obvious, but it's worth saying. I'm not exactly sure why, for instance, John Edwards was the Vice Presidential nominee in 2004. He wasn't a surrogate for the stoutly anti-war wing of the party. He wasn't a surrogate for Southern white men (the campaign didn't even try in the South). It seems the logic was that he was charming and charismatic and inoffensive. His selection was based purely on tactics -- he would make the ticket more electable -- without actually making the ticket more electable.



Display:


Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

Biden has sure come out swinging for Barack in the last week.  I'm not comfortable with certain aspects of his record (credit industry), but I do understand the realities of being a Senator from Delaware.

Obama/Biden is very interesting.


by Pat Flatley on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:15:27 AM EST

Polling has Hillary WINNING against McCain (none / 0)

Obama is NOT winning those same polls with the same margins. (he's FAR less likely to win)


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.
by architek on Sat May 24, 2008 at 11:52:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Polling has Hillary WINNING against McCain (none / 0)

PLEASE TURN OFF YOUR BOLD AND CAPS LOCK!!!!  

ALSO, TRY NOT TO USE UP ALL OF THE EXCLAMATION POINTS!!  THE REST OF US MIGHT WANT TO USE SOME!!!!!!!


by TL on Sat May 24, 2008 at 05:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Jim Webb (2.00 / 2)

I think Jim Webb is the right guy. He's tough. His national security cred is impeccable. And he's already had a high-profile disagreement with McCain. He's also from Virginia and has a lot of insight into Appalachian voters.


by elrod on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:20:25 AM EST

Re: Jim Webb (none / 0)

Everyone is in love with Webb... Do you really want him to be president?  He's not very progressive...  He's also a loose cannon... as for Appalachian voters, he didn't win much with them... he mostly won in Northern Virginia...


by LordMike on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:23:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jim Webb (2.00 / 1)

Webb reminds me of Lieberman. He's stabbed my core values more than once. But then, I'm pretty resigned to the idea that anyone I REALLY like won't be Obama's VP.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:28:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jim Webb (none / 0)

So now I'm curious - who would you like?


by TL on Sat May 24, 2008 at 05:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jim Webb (none / 0)

This list is not in any order of preference, but rather as people come to mind....

Ralph Nader
Barbera Boxer
Howard Dean
Bernie Sanders
Jim McDermott
Maxine Waters
Others in this vein

You get the idea, I'm sure. But like I said, I'm not holding my breath or vote in expectation of such a VP. I'll accept whomever Obama and his advisors pick to help him win. And my specultions will be along that line rather than my personal preference.

But would I love to be surprised with a VP I would love? Yes.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sat May 24, 2008 at 05:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jim Webb (none / 0)

It's an interesting group.  I think you're probably right about the prediction, although to my eye there's a fair amount of range there.  

As long as it's not Hagel!


by TL on Sat May 24, 2008 at 05:54:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jim Webb (none / 0)

He's only right on one issue -- Iraq. And he was wrong on it when it counted most in 2002. I don't see how Obama can choose anyone who supported it when one of his signatures is having been against it all along.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sat May 24, 2008 at 05:58:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jim Webb (2.00 / 2)

On some important issues he's more progressive than almost any other high profile democrat. Consider this quote from an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal:

"The most important issue in politics today is our society's steady drift towards a class-based system, the likes of which we have not seen since the 19th century" (http://www.american.com/archive/2006/nov ember/the-class-struggle-of-jim-webb).  

Or consider that he feels that the high incarceration rates in the United States is a major problem that we need to deal with (http://webb.senate.gov/newsroom/record.c fm?id=284989).

I think Jim Webb is one of the most fascinating Democrats around and I think he would make a great choice for VP.


by berkeleymike on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:43:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jim Webb (none / 0)

And I think I could live with him as president, too, on grounds of authenticity, and that's gotta' be a criteria for the position.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:05:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not very progressive? (2.00 / 1)

This is his 2007 SOTU rebuttal, it's longish but worth watching.  He's right on point and he's an economic populist with conviction.



by Shaun Appleby on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:53:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you (none / 0)

That's a powerful speech -- it's well worth sitting back and listening to every word.

I had dismissed Webb without paying much attention to him for the simple reason that a democratic senate seat in VA is so valuable and we may be as close to the magical 60 in 2008 as we were to the magical 50 in 2006.

However ... after hearing this, the ability that this man would have to direct powerful and righteous rage at the noise machine and the swiftboaters might make it worth the statistical risk that his senate senate would be the difference between 59 and 60.

Better to have President Obama with 59 democratic senators than President McCain with 60.

This is pain of the current situation. Obama could win in a landslide or lose by the same margin as Kerry. There's no way to know for sure.


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:25:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (none / 0)

Well, you're point about the seat is a real issue and is mentioned every time Webb as VP comes up in progressive circles.  Gives pause, to be sure, but then again Mark Warner is headed that way too in 2008.  Elevating Webb may actually help his chances, which seem pretty good anyhow, and would surely create an opportunity for a replacement.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:47:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (2.00 / 2)

We won't lose the seat.  Kaine will appoint a democratic successor.


by LordMike on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:49:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jim Webb (2.00 / 1)

I like Webb, but during his Senate race something he'd written back in the 1970s against the concept of women in combat popped up as an issue.  

Off-putting to female voters who were already disappointed that Hillary Clinton did not become the nominee?


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:12:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jim Webb (2.00 / 1)

Those who know Webb will recognize the excellence of this choice, and if Obama wants him and he agrees, then everyone else will learn what those of us who know Webb already recognize.

OBAMA/WEBB is the exact opposite of BUSH/CHENEY.

And, folks, it doesn't get any better than that!


by xdem on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:44:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes (2.00 / 1)

If Obama is fool enough to pick Clinton, he better get a food-taster is all I can say.

That and an alibi for whatever impeachment-worthy scandals mysteriously manifest as soon as they're in the White House.

Having a Clinton as your VP would be like being heir to the Roman Empire under the Claudians, or Archbishop of Canterbury in Merrie England.


by admiralnaismith on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:22:28 AM EST

Re: Playing the Veepstakes (none / 0)

She does not want to be VP. Don't believe everything  you read or hear.


by Actright on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:29:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes (none / 0)

no one refuses the veep.  You might want to take your own advice.


by semiquaver on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:16:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes (none / 0)

I doubt she'd be the pick after today.  Politics or no, the VP and President need to be able to work together on a daily basis, and barring calling in a therapist for the two of them, I don't think they can work together after all of this.  I know Obama's a professional, and so is she, but in recent memory (obviously, Truman/FDR being a good exception), the VP and President have had a strong working relationship, especially since post-WW2 VPs have a larger role in policy and daily governance.

There's a lot of ill will between the two of them, and not insignificantly, a meeting of their spouses today would probably end in a fistfight.  Bill Clinton's public appearances show him to be especially angry and hurt, and Michelle Obama is clearly especially protective of her husband.

I guess it depends on when Obama decides to make the choice - the longer he waits, the more likely it is that cooler heads prevail.  But Googling determined that Edwards was picked in the first week of July, which isn't that far away really.


by auronrenouille on Sat May 24, 2008 at 03:59:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm a fan of either (none / 0)

the gov from Kansas or the gov from Missouri. Both score highly on three factors:

1. LOYALTY (this one's non-negotiable)

2. ACCESSIBILITY (both can go out and campaign hard)

3. REGIONALITY (appeal in home and neighboring states)

Most importantly, I would trust either with the presidency if the unthinkable happened to Pres. Obama.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:23:04 AM EST

Re: I'm a fan of either (none / 0)

The fact is - as painful and unfortunately relevant as it is tonight to consider - that the #1 qualification for a VP is that he or she can take over the presidency at a moment's notice.  That's the first thing I consider, and I believe that all of the names that I've seen floated for Barack have met this criterion.


by Pat Flatley on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:25:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think any of them would be capable, (none / 0)

but some would certainly be better than others. Certain things--an opposition to Iraq (now, if not before), a prioritization on education and healthcare, and an understanding of the word "diplomacy"--are non-negotiables for me. This crosses off a lot of Republican "unity" ideas.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:39:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think any of them would be capable, (2.00 / 1)

I'd agree with this, yeah.  For example, I'd love to see Chuck Hagel as Sec. Def. but I wouldn't want him as VP simply because I disagree with him on most everything.


by Pat Flatley on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:42:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you mean senator... (none / 0)

of Missouri: McCaskill. Missouri's Governor is Republican Matt Blunt. That said- either Sebelius or McCaskill would make a great deal of sense and have to be on the short list... though I'm not sure either are my preference. I'm having a renewed interest in Sherrod Brown as a dark horse candidate...


by Casuist on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:27:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, Senator McCaskill... (none / 0)

I think one of the two would do a great job. Brown is interesting, but one of my biggest marks concerns people who've openly come out for Obama instead of trying to play the field. That's one of the reasons Webb is low on my personal list.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:37:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

from a certain perspective... (2.00 / 1)

neutrality in this hostile race is almost an asset. I make no excuses for any superdelegate who waits until after, say, June 10th... but in the meantime some distance from the primary in the VP selection may be an important aspect of the healing process.


by Casuist on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:46:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's a good point, true. (none / 0)


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:02:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Agree (none / 0)

I don't think it should be a Senator.  Better a Governor.  I hadn't though about McCaskill, though she has handled herself really well throughout the campaign.  

Was leaning towards Sebelius, but wonder if it might not be better to get someone with more military/foreign policy creds - someone like Wesley Clark.


Anthropologists for human diversity; opposing McCain perversity
by NeciVelez on Sat May 24, 2008 at 07:06:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

WTF Governor of MO is Republican! (none / 0)

Matt Blunt. Are you out of your mind!


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Sat May 24, 2008 at 08:11:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm a fan of either (none / 0)

And yet you don't know their names.


by northstars on Sat May 24, 2008 at 08:47:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Saw William Cohen on CNN today. (none / 0)

It was suggested that he would be a good VP for Obama and I can't say I disagree from a political standpoint. He commands respect across the board and I can't imagine anyone disliking him. In fact, he reminds me of George Washington.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:23:51 AM EST

Re: Saw William Cohen on CNN today. (none / 0)

Very interesting.  I had never even thought of him.


by Pat Flatley on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:25:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saw William Cohen on CNN today. (none / 0)

Bah to a Republican Veep.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Coh en


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:29:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saw William Cohen on CNN today. (none / 0)

To the poster who worried about a food taster with Clinton as a veep, they surely should worry with a Republican veep.


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Sat May 24, 2008 at 03:01:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saw William Cohen on CNN today. (none / 0)

You knew George Washington?

;-)


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:32:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saw William Cohen on CNN today. (none / 0)

Put a little white wig on him and the resemblence would be uncanny. Washington was also a very amicable person admired by everyone including those who disagreed with him politically.

I'm not advocating Cohen, but on a thread dominated by the all-but-Republican Jim Webb, he isn't such a far fetched consideration.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sat May 24, 2008 at 11:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Americans love a train wreck (none / 0)

In spite of the spectacle that transpired today, America's love for reality television and train wrecks in general is why Obama's best pick is still Hillary Clinton if Obama wins the nomination; the only ticket that would be close to even with an Obama/Hillary ticket is McCain/Huckabee or McCain/Bloomberg.  


by Blazers Edge on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:24:34 AM EST

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

I don't see why everyone is obsessed with picking a VP right now.  Let McCain pick his, then figure out where we stand.   He needs to make a pick soon... people have been clamoring for it for awhile.  We've got time.  In sales, as in politics, the first person to talk usually loses.


by LordMike on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:25:37 AM EST

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

It's just fun, idle speculation.  The VP pick never makes a difference (Joe Kennedy was more important than LBJ), but it makes good copy.


by Pat Flatley on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:26:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You mean John Kennedy (none / 0)


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Sat May 24, 2008 at 08:13:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't see why everyone is obsessed (none / 0)

Politicos love to talk politics. People have been speculating on VP choices since back when there were still 8 Democratic candidates.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:33:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

AL GORE (none / 0)


Obama/Gore

The REAL Dream Ticket.

(that would be cool)


Obama/Clark (still dreaming)
by spacemanspiff on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:39:06 AM EST

Re: AL GORE (2.00 / 1)

Is he still sporting the beard?  Because he'd need to shave it.  Being bewhiskered myself, I can tell you that it's pretty hard to do.


by semiquaver on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:21:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

While Gore won't be VP, I've been dreaming about what formal role he could potentially play in Obama's administration.  If there were ever a moment to create a new cabinet position...


by Pat Flatley on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:41:12 AM EST

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

Ambassador of Earth?


by Shaun Appleby on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:00:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

Secretary of Environmental Affairs.  Or Secretary of Climate Change.  


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:15:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

Secretary of the Planet?


by Shaun Appleby on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:21:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

LOL.  A bit grandiose, maybe?    


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:28:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

No doubt, but my point is that Gore is leading the way to a supra-national world view.  And if every major nation had a planetary cabinet position for the environment a new paradigm for atmospheric, oceanic and terrestrial issues could emerge.  Energy, for example.  I genuinely think that is where Al Gore is headed.  But I was basically kidding.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:53:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

Captain Planet!


by TL on Sat May 24, 2008 at 05:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

Gore has a much more important role than to be bogged down in some administrations politicing. We need him in charge and not under anyones thumb for Global Warming. Go Gore!


by Justwords on Sat May 24, 2008 at 03:55:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What about.. (none / 0)

...Edwards and how well he is playing in the polls?


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:45:49 AM EST

Re: What about.. (none / 0)

More than that. Edwards pushed the campaign to the left, and really believes in universal healthcare, he would be a force to reminding Obama not to push to far on that issue. In many ways, he'd be perfect because he'd not only make a good president, but he's a reassuring candidate.

There are a few problems with Edwards.

One is that he has the smell of a loser around him. As stated in the diary, he did nothing for 2004, despite being the "safe" candidate (white/male/southern) in this race, he never got any traction at all.

Another is his tone compared to Obama's. It is by far the most firey and the kind of rhetoric he used is part of the reason indies flocked to Obama. I firmly believe Obama is quite progressive, and not just for the times, even if the political center were actually in the center instead of Regan being the "center" he'd be a progressive. However if Edwards is as firey as he was, it could undermine Obama's own message--they get to nearly the same places but Obama is far more palatable about it.

Finally his wife. Could Edwards give his full attention to the campaign? God forbid his wife take a turn for the worse and then he becomes torn between being by her side and the election in the fall. I'm not just saying that politically, but personally I would not wish him to have to endure that even if it was what his wife wanted it might not be what he wanted, or would wish to go through.

So I guess if Obama could make sure he stays on message and doesn't uncork too often, and if Edwards can shake the Loser brand and is willing to take the risk for his family, I think he'd be one of the better choices.

...but tbh, I am holding out for Gore.


by MNPundit on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:14:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about.. (none / 0)

On the loser thing: I suppose.  But if that's true, that rules out the others who ran for President this year as well, since they also did not win the primary (unless you're referring to Kerry's loss in the general).  If you mean Kerry's loss, I'm fairly certain Kerry would step up and do the right thing and say his loss was his fault, that Edwards helped him a lot, particularly with moderates (who Kerry won 54-44).  

On the firey message: The veep's usually been the more aggressive of the two.  I actually think his fire is a benefit, and will make him a better VP than he was in 2004.

Other points:

Very vetted from 2004 and the current campaign.  

His campaign this time has been more confrontational and aggressive than it was in 2004.  As such, I think he'd be a stronger VP pick (in terms of being attack dog) than last time.  I think his previous experience running for Veep also would help him in this regard.    

Two surrogates for the price of one- Elizabeth Edwards is a formidable individual (this rationale would of course apply to Hillary as well, although I don't think Elizabeth would bring the negatives of the Clintons).  I think that if Edwards was willing to make the run for President, they had already decided together that her illness wouldn't derail his attempts to help the country.  

I think a possibility of doing stuff in the South (although even I'm not convinced of this one).  But I do think that Obama will be stronger than Kerry there, and help black turnout.  If in addition to that Edwards can appeal to some Southern whites---combined with the fact that McCain has taken it upon himself to start spitting in the faces of pastors he sought to endorse him---I think there's at least a chance of some things opening up in the South.

Full disclosure: when Edwards was in the race, I was undecided between him and Obama.  So, I'd personally be extremely excited about this ticket.  


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:43:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (2.00 / 2)

And here I thought Cheney's prime asset as Vice President was his ability to pick himself as the Vice President...


by Phoenix Rising on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:46:30 AM EST

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

Yow!  There's a blast from the past.  Luckily, I don't think we'll get Bob Johnson choosing himself as VP.

Also - how weird is it that Johnson headed the selection committee when Mondale picked Ferraro in 1984?


by TL on Sat May 24, 2008 at 05:40:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (2.00 / 1)

Much to my surprise, I'm starting to warm to this idea that Obama should pick Clinton to be VP.  First, whatever people think today, I suspect she'd actually be very loyal (if for no other reason than this--her only chance to be president would be to convince voters in 2016 that she'd been part of a successful administration and the Dems deserve four more years).

This election, also, has revealed a generational split which the Dems should own.  Women over 45, boomers, and seniors, might come to respect Obama, but who thinks they'll come to love him the way they do her?  And a lot of this, simply, comes down a different set of generational experiences and aspirations.

If Obama is serious about wanting to move politics beyond the logjam of the 80s and 90s, he'll need to sell this idea to older voters that they have a place in this new politics.  Clinton could probably do that.  I can't think of anyone else right now who could do as good a job.

Think it's also possible, btw, that Clinton might be fully willing to embrace this (since for her there would be a big payoff--her political persona would no longer be tied to Bill Clinton's administration, that association would probably be gone after two years).

And if she ran and won in 2016, this wouldn't come with the same baggage (eg. there would be no Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton tag team, or Clinton restoration, etc., she'd have to make the case that the administration she belonged to delivered).

This campaign is not going to last forever.  It's worth thinking about.


by IncognitoErgoSum on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:51:59 AM EST

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

Well said Incognito. I agree that Hilary would be a great VP. Did anyone else see the idea floated that New York Guv Patterson should appoint Bill to Hillary's Senate seat? He would instantly help the administration pass its most important legislation. Bill would like the historical aspect, as no former president has served in the US Senate.


by northstars on Sat May 24, 2008 at 08:58:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

Andrew Johnson served in the Senate after leaving the White House.


by Collideascope on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:18:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Some Other Post-Presidential Careers (none / 0)

John Q. Adams was a pretty powerful congressman for 18 years after being President. William Taft was Chief Justice in the 1920s, overseeing reform of the judicial system.
by professor on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:57:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (2.00 / 1)

Obama has to pick Strickland if he has any smarts about him.

His electoral map -- in a year when Democrats should be walking into the White House - is in total disarray.

He'll probably pick Sebelius, though, and piss off all of Hillary's supporters even more and delude himself into thinking he can win Kansas (LOL!!!!).


by GregNYC on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:53:47 AM EST

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

I'm hoping he's got enough political smarts to pick Strickland. If it's not Strickland or Webb it's a wasted choice, zero impact when we need impact.

I mentioned Strickland in a lengthy post below, before noticing you had mentioned him.

I'm worried Obama is so arrogantly preoccupied with himself he doesn't sense that he needs a Strickland or Webb.


by Gary Kilbride on Sat May 24, 2008 at 03:35:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

I think he needs Strickland more than Webb.

Webb is not super popular in VA and is not the best campaigner. I like Webb a lot, but I don't know if he'll do the trick.


by GregNYC on Sat May 24, 2008 at 03:47:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

Webb is out. He made if perfectly clear that no matter who the nominee was he was not interested in being a VP for anyone. He didn't waiver- he wasn't coy- he said NO.


by Justwords on Sat May 24, 2008 at 03:59:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

So arrogantly preoccupied with himself that he can't pick a pro-life running mate? Strickland is far from perfect, you know.


by kyle in philly on Sat May 24, 2008 at 04:20:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Strickland (none / 0)

Strickland has an interesting personal history, and it is Ohio.  Anyone here from Ohio with a more detailed take on him?


by mady on Sat May 24, 2008 at 11:42:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

i'm actually really warming up to the idea of edwards as vp (rather than attorney general).
s.
by synth on Sat May 24, 2008 at 03:16:47 AM EST

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

This is all glorified bunk, although it apparently sounds cute to people who don't deal with variables and outcomes on a daily basis.

A VP doesn't balance anything. The role is not to have a role, like a referee in boxing. The media and therefore the public only pay attention when the VP is self destructive.

To abuse another sports analogy, it's actually like the first tee at a celebrity golf tournament or pro am. Make one nice swing or shank it and that's how everyone will view your game. A VP choice is remembered for the one debate, not much else, other than the bottom line. Edwards would have been the greatest VP pick in history if 60,000 votes had turned in Ohio.

The only place the VP selection matters is his home state. Otherwise, I'd thrill to wager on the under, if we could run parallel elections with different VPs or no VPs, amidst projections of how many votes are changed among so-called moderate values voters, or similar conventional wisdom crap.

Edwards was worth precisely the 3-3.5 points he figured to boost Kerry in North Carolina. Check the partisan index gap in that state from '00 to '04. On many sites I predicted a 3 to 3.5 point change. Minor problem: North Carolina was roughly 10 points red compared to the nation as a whole, so a yank of 3-3.5 was like me playing Tiger Woods with 3 shots handicap per round. Good luck.

We could have dodged Bush and Iraq if Gore had identified Bob Graham in 2000. Kerry lacked a logical choice from Ohio. He needed John Glenn at 20 years younger.

But this time we've got several intriguing options. Annexing Virginia flops the entire margin for error. Obama supporters thrill to assert his alternate routes to 270, but none of them make a damn bit of mathematical sense when you consider the likelihood of losing Ohio simultaneous to sweeping many states with higher percentage of self-identified conservatives than Ohio.

However, adding Virginia and its 13 electoral votes allows a split of those states, not a sweep. Totally different ball game from a probability standpoint. Again, I don't see that properly emphasized or understood, on progressive sites. Webb is a terrific choice, assuming we aren't more brazenly obvious, with someone like Ted Strickland.

Plus, Virginia is a proud political state but one that hasn't been represented on a national ticket in decades. A VP choice could easily have favorite son sway beyond the 3-3.5 range.

The pundits thrill to assert the politics of Tennessee had changed while Gore was in Washington. True, but the bulk of the switch was  decreased blind loyalty, a ho-hum attitude once Gore was also on the ticket in '92 and '96. Arkansas was 5 points more of a partisan index tilt for Clinton in '92 than '96. These things don't last but you're foolish to avoid the artificial boost when it's available. Kick 'em when they're down, and fool 'em when you can.

And once you're in office, no apologies necessary.


by Gary Kilbride on Sat May 24, 2008 at 03:18:57 AM EST

Re: Playing the Veepstakes (none / 0)

I think the fact that Clinton is going to end this contest with more votes than Obama gives her a strong claim to be at least seriously considered for VP.

Clinton has shown herself to be a great attack dog during this campaign. Picking Clinton would unify the party and help with voters that Obama has been doing poorly with.

When i thought Clinton could win i wanted Obama as VP, and now that Clinton can't win i want her as VP.


by liberalj on Sat May 24, 2008 at 08:47:37 AM EST

Re: Playing the Veepstakes (none / 0)

She's also shown she can get the much needed voters Dems lost years ago.

but for the anger at Republicans and Bush, I'd say Dems are making a terrible mistake.  Let's hope that anger is enough. But I worry about the Electoral College.

2000 redux?


by Juno on Sat May 24, 2008 at 09:06:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes (none / 0)

I had serious concerns about Obama, and not just because i was backing Clinton. But the time for those doubts and concerns is over, its time to get behind him.

It would be ironic if this was a 2000 redux. Obama is likely to win the nomination despite losing the popular vote, for him to then lose the election whilst winning the popular vote would be depressingly ironic.


by liberalj on Sat May 24, 2008 at 09:14:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards is the Leader and a New Suggestion (none / 0)

In the most recent SUSA polls of OH and PA, Obama-Edwards scored highest Sebelius, Rendell, Biden against any McCain-VP matchup. That says something. I would be interested in the month of June for different polling matchups -- specifically Obama-Clinton relative to other VP selections.

The new suggestion for Obama to do before teh convention might be to select not just a VP but also a Sec. of State and Defense. WHy not choose either Edwards or Webb as VP and then announce Sam Nunn as Sec. of Defense and Joe Biden as Sec. of State.

The electoral strategy for Obama is to hold Kerry states and try and flip OH/IA/CO/VA/NV. Democratic women will return to the fold. The long-term Dem problem is with white men. This is the critical demographic Obama needs to hold PA/MI and try and flip OH/VA. He can't win APpalachian voters in WV/KY/TN/AL/MI/GA which is fine and he shouldn't focus there. I think FL is an up hill climb and would turn out to be a moneypit.


by chatters71 on Sat May 24, 2008 at 09:04:47 AM EST

Re: Edwards is the Leader and a New Suggestion (none / 0)

>>>>> Democratic women will return to the fold. The long-term Dem problem is with white men. >>>>>>

As Rachel Maddow points out, Democrats never win the white male vote in presidential races.  As I see it, boosting the # of unmarried female voters (the largest and most ignored pile of reliable Democratic votes) is way more key than chasing after and pandering to white male hawkish voters, aka the Republican base.  


by chiefscribe on Sat May 24, 2008 at 09:52:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

How 'bout a veep who doesn't commit treason?

That'd be nice.


by Juno on Sat May 24, 2008 at 09:05:28 AM EST

Not Clinton (none / 0)

Well, Clinton took herself out of contention of the vp slot with her assassination comment. You just can't have a vp on the ticket who would benefit from the nominee being killed who has talked about that as a possibility.

I don't think that she was really thinking about what she was saying, but her comment was a gaffe that takes her out of that possibility.

And it certainly doesn't bring any superdelegates to her or prompts any to switch to her, so she has no chance of getting the nomination.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat May 24, 2008 at 09:28:01 AM EST

Re: Not Clinton (none / 0)

It'd be nice if this country would stop being so emotionally immature and quick on the trigger over meaningless things, ie: the Dean Scream, Gore's Internet comment, and now this.


by Juno on Sat May 24, 2008 at 09:29:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Clinton (none / 0)

Actually, she didn't. Anyone who's sick enough to consider taking out Obama doesn't want Hillary either. Hillary as VP could be seen as an insurance policy.


by SophieL on Sat May 24, 2008 at 09:56:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Clinton (none / 0)

If Hillary was vp or vp nominee and something happened to Obama, the conspiracy theory stuff would blow all the past ones out of the water.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:17:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes (none / 0)

Some thoughts

Since the VP nominee cannot guarantee delivery of their own state (eg Ferraro 84, Bentsen 88, Edwards 04) or region (Bentsen and Edwards again); its time to rethink the concept of what you want a VP for (aside for the Constitutional duties that will not come into effect after 1/20/09 and you must win the election in November)

The VP nominee is a CAMPAIGNER --- a surrogate for the Presidential nominee.  Many nominee have been absolutely horrid at this.  I was not impressed with Edwards as a campaigner.  Bush I wasn't very good either.  Who was good?  Ferraro. Gore. Kemp.

The VP nominee is a FUNDRAISER --- a person who can raise money from the party faithful, from big money contributors, and from his/her own supporters.  Obama has no problems raising money so this not an issue.  (Just so we're clear, Clinton is an excellent fundraiser --- with Obama the likely nominee, it is not a pressing issue)

The VP nominee is an ADVOCATE for the Pres. Nominee's Agenda.  I worked for Dukakis in 88 and Bentsen was a regular worry --- he had a legislative record that he knew and advocated in Texas and had to be advised frequently when it was out of kilter with Dukakis.

I think the question is can Strickland, Richardson, McGaskill, Hillary (don't be crass she needs to be on a list), Rendell, Sebellius, Kaine, Webb, or Fill in your VP choice here do it?

Of the people here (other than Hillary whose campaign skills are excellent) work a race that will likely be nip and tuck to the end.

After years of GOP corruption in Ohio, it would have taken some real incompetence to lose his race for governor.  On the other hand, his campaign skills were really honed in his congressional races when the GOP owned Ohio.  He knows the hard press of a brutal campaign.

Sebelius is an excellent campaigner. Although her gubernatorial victory was made part by GOP divisions in Kansas, her Insurance Commissioner victory before then took everyone by surprise.  Her 2002 race was defintely nip and tuck and its happened in a Red State

McCaskill (MO) is an excellent campaigner in the SWING STATE since the the phrase "swing state" was coined. She defeated an imcumbent Senator --- it was not an open seat race.  Before her Senate victory, she beat the incumbent governor in a primary in 2004 (her loss in the 2004 governor's race is her only loss in 2 decades)

Rendell is a great campaigner --- he won the state despite being a former Philadelphia Mayor.  Problems is after his reeelection, the phrase this is my last campaign and I'm done running for office.  I don't think his heart would be in running.

Richardson is a great campaigner.  New Mexico is a tough state to run in.  He's the person who I think will be a good VP ---- but I think he should have been a better advocate for teh Dem ticket in 2004 and help deliver NM and its 5 electoral votes to Kerry

Webb --- sorry he sucks.  His campaigning style works great in Virginia and probably the entire Appalacia area but so what.  I'd feel more comforatble knowing he'd gone out and camapigned for other tickets aggressively

Kaine --- great campaigner.  His real appeal is that he campaigned in a state with political positions (anti-death penalty) that were out of sync with his electorate and he turned the issue in his favor.


by kmwray on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:41:52 AM EST

Re: Playing the Veepstakes (none / 0)

If Obama needs a candidate from Ohio- He should consider Sherrod Brown instead of Ted Strickland. Sherrod Brown is much younger than Ted Strickland who in November 2016 will be 75 years old. Brown is also more progressive than Strickland. Brown got elected to the US Senate in 2006 by unseating a McCain-type Republican - a Moderate to Conservative Republican(Mike DeWine) by a double digit margin. Strickland had an easier victory because he was running in a open seat- The outgoing Republican Governor Bob Taft was so unpopular and corrupt. The 2006 Republican Nominee Ken Blackwell was a wingnut. Brown served two terms as Ohio Secretary of State and 7 terms in the US House of Representatives.
If Obama wants to pick a Governor. He should go with Mike Easley of North Carolina- He is a Clinton Surrogate. He served two terms as State Attorney General and Two Terms as Governor. He is Catholic.
by nkpolitics on Sat May 24, 2008 at 12:59:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

I think Edwards was chosen as VP to off set Kerry's woodenness on the stage. The nickname Lurch was unkind but not too far off the mark.
Obama will have to pick a person that can get him the blue collar/Appalachian if that is at all possible. People just don't trust him.
For Hillary Wes Clark would be a good fit.
by usedmeat on Sat May 24, 2008 at 11:02:51 AM EST

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

one more note:
I see by the Electoral College graphic at the top of the page that obama finally has enough to defeat John McCain but Hillary has even more.
Now consider the tons of negative press Hillary has gotten compared to Obama. Who do you think will be the stronger candidate come November? The republicans and the media have yet to start in on Obama.
by usedmeat on Sat May 24, 2008 at 11:13:54 AM EST

Who do you think will be the stronger candidate (none / 0)

Mentioning 'Hillary', 'Candidate', and 'November' in the same sentence shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the facts. The question is reduced to a comparison of Obama and Grampy.

That question answers itself.


by xdem on Sat May 24, 2008 at 12:10:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

Two things.

(1) Your argument about the media coverage is just wrong.  McCain has been going after Obama, not Clinton, for some time now.  Meanwhile, Clinton has also been going after Obama, while he's moved into the posture of saying nice things about her.  Please have a look at his speech in Iowa last Tuesday.  

(2) The most likely explanation for the disparity in outcomes is just what we've seen in the exit polls - lots of Hillary supporters are telling pollsters they would not vote for him.  Right now, he is doing much worse among D voters in the polls than she is, and among women, when matched up against McCain.  While it's certainly possible that will continue, I don't think it will.  His positions are too much like hers and too different than McCains, and I think he genuinely wants their votes and will court them.  It sucks to lose a primary - I've certainly been there - and for a while I didn't want to vote for the other candidate.  But over time wounds usually heal, especially when there's a clear difference between the candidates in the general.


by TL on Sat May 24, 2008 at 05:50:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing the Veepstakes, Finding a Surrogate (none / 0)

I like Phil Bredesen, D-TN gov. He's smart, likeable, elected statewide in TN by the biggest margin in state history.  He's term-limited, wouldn't pull a Dem out of the Senate, and he's good on choice, has a health care background, has been uncommitted in the primary (though he's a pelosi-group member.

He's a good gov't guy too. A solid choice.


by Gnopple on Sat May 24, 2008 at 05:37:59 PM EST


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